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Message: What to do if this group gets "shuttered" by MSN

From: Joe Sent: 30 Nov. 2002 Message 1 of 17

A lot of adult MSN groups have been closed (or "shuttered") by MSN lately. This seems to happen at random, and without warning. Adult groups based in the UK have been especially hard hit, but groups based elsewhere have also been affected. (The group "Cindy and Joe (Public)" is based in the USA from MSN's point of view.)

If "Cindy and Joe" gets shuttered by MSN you will see this when you try to visit us:

This Group is Unavailable

This Group is temporarily unavailable. Please come back later.

The word "temporarily" should be taken with a grain of salt. It normally means "permanently". There are examples of MSN groups that were shuttered two years ago and which still say "This group is temporarily unavailable".

If this "Cindy and Joe" group ever does get shuttered by MSN, then please come and visit our front-end web site at http://www.CindyAndJoe.com, where we will post information about what we intend to do.

Hoping it will never happen.

Yours,
Joe (and Cindy)

From: Joe Sent: 3 Dec. 2002 Message 2 of 17

I'm getting very bad feelings about this. I'm afraid that MSN is going to close this group. MSN is apparently saying that anything with "hard-core porn" is not acceptable under their "code of conduct", and "Cindy and Joe" is obviously hard-core porn.

A while back the group "Extrem Games" (http://communities.msn.com/ExtremGames) was closed, and just today "Ellie's Big Holes Club" (http://groups.msn.com/ElliesBigHolesClub) got closed.

Like I say above, if this group gets closed, then take a look at http://www.CindyAndJoe.com to see what our next step will be.

Joe

From: KayserSozeII Sent: 3 Dec. 2002 Message 3 of 17

Speaking of clubs getting shut down, I would guess that a number of you are familiar with Ellie's club. Well, it dropped off my list today. I tired to go to the club from the link's page, but I get the old, unavailable.

Why is the world so oppressive to sex?? Did all these self-righteous people forget where we all came from?

Soze

From: Joe Sent: 4 Dec. 2002 Message 4 of 17

Soze,

> Why is the world so oppressive to sex??

You're right that it's pretty general, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that the entire world has the same attitudes. Cindy and I are fortunate to live in Denmark, which has a very liberal and enlightened view on sex. And there are other places in the world with similar attitudes.

MSN is based in the USA, and I'm wondering if it isn't a shift in the American political balance of power, from Democratic to Republican, that is behind the current more oppressive tendencies here at MSN Groups.

Joe

From: hemiguy Sent: 6 Dec. 2002 Message 5 of 17

I'm getting paranoid My Groups is beginning to look rather empty . So much for freedom of expression . Ellie's was one of my favorites , after Cindy and Joes of course and now all that data --- gone ! My fingers and toes are firmly crossed that I don't lose any more .

Hemi

From: Joe Sent: 6 Dec. 2002 Message 6 of 17

Hemiguy,

> My Groups is beginning to look rather empty

I know what you mean. A couple of weeks ago my "My groups" list was at the limit of 50 groups. Today there are 39 on the list.

> So much for freedom of expression

Over at "Community Feedback" (http://groups.msn.com/CommunityFeedback) somebody posted a definition of "pornography" from an American on-line law dictionary. It was unbelievable that they lumped child pornography and ordinary pornography into the same category! My guess is that this is a strategy used by American porn-haters.

See messages number 46 and 48 on this thread:
http://groups.msn.com/CommunityFeedback/general.msnw?action=get_message&ID_Message=358879

My question is, why do sane Americans (and other nationalities where porn-haters flourish) let the porn-haters get away with this?

Joe

From: hemiguy Sent: 7 Dec. 2002 Message 7 of 17

Hi joe thanks for the reply I find it rather frightening that an intimate act performed by a consenting , legal age couple or individual has been lumped in with the kiddie/porn and other such areas . Personally I have a very strong negative feeling towards people who would use children or animals in such a way , and rape makes me see red and reach for the nearest baseball bat !
Im not sure how viewing what is available on most of My Groups is supposed to draw me deeper into what I consider to be objectionable subjects . The closing of Groups that would seem to be not acceptable but not objectionable to other people , such as parents or most co-workers etc , can only drive the " other " groups deeper underground and harder to police or close down .
Surely the act of closing down a site with no prior warning is a breach of rights no matter what country you are in .
Sorry to have rattled on but I have very strong views on censorship and people telling me what I can or cannot see .
hemi

From: hemiguy Sent: 7 Dec. 2002 Message 8 of 17

Hi there , me I have just been checking out one of my other favorite groups . It is a motoring group and in it such things as burnouts , street racing and where our favorite piece of road is to blow out the cobwebs are discussed at great lenght . All of which are illegal here in New Zealand plus many other lines of discussion that goes on . Does this mean that MSN will be closing this group too ?
sarcastic hemi

From: Spencer2000 Sent: 8 Dec. 2002 Message 9 of 17

Joe,

I'm certainly no expert on censorship or conservative movements, but I am a liberal living in the generally conservative southeastern US and if you'll permit me, I'll tell you my take on this issue. Sex is generally considered to be a somewhat necessary evil (in many parts of the US), from which we must protect our children until they are adults ready to reproduce. As a result of repressing this normal, natural, and necessary aspect of humanity, the US has developed a split-personality about sex. It's basically a billion dollar a year industry that nearly everyone denies supporting. But you have to remember, the United States was founded by conservative religious zealots who were so extreme as to be kicked out of their native country and basically flung halfway around the world.

A side note: you live in a sexually progressive country, why not find some sort of host there? I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that I would subscribe to your website if the content were free of censorship.

From: Joe Sent: 10 Dec. 2002 Message 10 of 17

I sometimes take a look at the MSN Groups directory, and have occasionally noted some statistics about the different categories. Here's some food for thought:

One year ago there were approx. 70 000 communities in the People >
Romance > Adults category.

Today there are approx. 35 000 groups in this category.

Two months ago there were approx. 11 000 groups in the People > Romance
> Adults > Personals category.

Today there are approx. 8 000 groups in this category.

The first change is partly due to MSN moving some groups from People >
Romance > Adults to People > Romance > Adults > Personals (they did that to this group, for example), but the second change is pure and simple closing of groups.

It's gotten pretty scary being the manager of an adult group here at MSN Groups. :-(

Joe

From: Joe Sent: 10 Dec. 2002 Message 11 of 17

Spencer2000,

Thanks for your insights into the issues involved here.

> Sex is generally considered to be a somewhat necessary evil (in many parts of the US), from which we must protect our children until they are adults ready to reproduce.

That must be really unfortunate for the children who grow up without getting a normal view about sex because they aren't given straight information when they express natural curiosity, and instead get the idea that sex is something to be repressed, i.e., there must be something wrong with it.

The phrase "we must protect our children" reminds me of a story about what happened when the American Blockbuster video rental chain took over a Danish video rental chain and decreed that all porn videos had to be removed from the stores. I'll try to remember to tell that story tomorrow.

> A side note: you live in a sexually progressive country, why not find some sort of host there?

We have thought about it many times, but there are a couple of problems.

We do like the "group-environment" that MSN Groups provides, with a good message board and good photo album facilities, basically unlimited storage for the photos, and a club-like setup with membership and the ability to ban members, etc. The only real problem here is the lack of video storage, if we neglect the problem that we're probably going to get shut down soon. :-(

Finding something as good as MSN Groups will be difficult. We may move to Yahoo Groups if we get closed down here, but that's also American, so we risk the same increase in anti-porn sentiments taking effect there too.

I'm not familiar with any non-American group-like sites. If any members have suggestions please let me know.

Then there's the possibility of trying to set something up on a server of our own, or on rented server space. We already have "The 'Cindy and Joe' Data Archive" site, which we pay a monthly fee for. I suppose I could try to find some bulletin board software and some photo album software and make a primitive group-like site there. I do have an IT background, but I'm definitely not a web server guru, and I'm not sure if I want to use the time a project like that would require.

By having our own private web server we could avoid paying the monthly fees that we currently pay, but there are two problems involved in that scenario: Internet bandwidth costs a lot more in Denmark than it does in the USA, and it's very difficult, perhaps impossible, to be totally anonymous when you put a web server on the Internet. The ISP is required by law to know who their customers are so they can report you to the authorities if you engage in something illegal, and Cindy and I would feel uncomfortable with an ISP knowing who we are, even though they are supposed to keep that information confidential. The ISP's own employees would have access to our identities, and Denmark is a small country, so who knows what a curious or malicious person might do.

> I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that I would subscribe to your website if the content were free of censorship.

That's one thing Cindy and I are quite sure of: We're never going to turn "Cindy and Joe" into a commercial site where people have to pay. We're not interested in the possible income, and definitely not interested in all the hassles.

Joe

From: JimB Sent: 11 Dec. 2002 Message 12 of 17

I have seen this same information being passed around on about 90% of the Yahoo (Adult) Groups and nothing has happened to any of them. I think this posting is by the same person(s) who is doing it on Yahoo. The only Groups Yahoo, and others, have shut down are those that were about children, the same was done with any web sites. The person(s) who posted the information on Yahoo included information on a link to an adult web link they were pushing. If MSN, or any of the others, were going to shut down adult sections they would be lossing a lot of business, and they fall out would have been started long ago. But, then again .....

From: Joe Sent: 15 Dec. 2002 Message 13 of 17

They say that if you can't do anything else about a bad situation, the thing to do is to try to laugh about it.

Over at the Community Feedback group there's a message thread where some members have posted alternative shuttered house graphics.
http://groups.msn.com/CommunityFeedback/social.msnw?action=get_message&ID_Message=361311

I've borrowed some of them and tweaked a few, and here you have it: What I think of MSN and their closing down groups.

Joe

From: Thomas Ghia Sent: 16 Dec. 2002 Message 14 of 17

Maybe I´m becoming paranoid, but when I go to the 'My Groups' homepage, MSN states that there have been no updates registered at this group; that is, no new messages or photos have been registered. Has this happened to anybody else? Is it a bad sign?

From: D FREaK Sent: 16 Dec. 2002 Message 15 of 17

None of my groups have updated sor about 4 days. I thought it was kinda odd considering how many groups I belong to. oxx

From: coolhand Sent: 19 Dec. 2002 Message 16 of 17

I've come here for so long that I've forgotten, until I went to post a reply to this thread, that I had never become a member. With that taken care of, my $0.02....

I suspect that US ISPs are under a great deal of pressure from the conservative dimwits currently in charge. I recall seeing some news blurb from the pious preacher himself, John Ashcroft, that specifically mentioned "fisting" as one of the "repugnant" activities he was fighting to protect "us" from. I feel a twinge of anxiety everytime I click on this and other groups, wondering if this will be the day I find it's gone.

From: Joe Sent: 20 Dec. 2002 Message 17 of 17

The statistics on the "My Groups" page have been stuck for going on two weeks now. But this doesn't have anything to do with the deletion of adult groups. It's a glitch that has hit MSN Groups before.

Joe