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Message:
A legal matter to watch
From: newunew Sent: 6 Dec. 2002 Message 1 of 16
This week, the U.S. Supreme Court agreed to hear a case called Lawrence v. Texas, an appeal of by a homosexual couple who who were convicted of sodomy for having anal sex with each other in their home. Apparantly a neighbor had heard noise, thought there was a burglary, and called the police. A police officer entered their home, observed them having sex with each other, and arrested them for violating Texas' sodomy law. They were convicted, their conviction was upheld by the state courts, and the U.S. Supreme Court has now agreed to hear their appeal.
Precedent is against them. 16 years ago, in a case called Bowers v. Hardwick, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of state sodomy laws as applied to private consensual sexual activity committed in a home. The Texas conviction was upheld based on that decision. Lawrence's lawyers are asking the Supreme Court to reconsider their prior decision. They also argue that the Texas law, which applies only to homosexual acts, discriminates on the basis of sex.
Consensual sodomy is currently illegal in about a third of the states, with about six states or so prohibiting homosexual sex only, and the rest prohibiting anything outside of marriage.
"Sodomy," also called "crime against nature" in some states, is generally considered to apply to oral and anal sex, although definitions vary by state. So far as I know, no state court has definitively held that consensual vaginal fisting is a form of sodomy. But some court decisions have held that their sodomy or "crime against nature" laws are broad enough to cover all similar "perverted" acts, which suggests that they might.
From: Blitzppp Sent: 6 Dec. 2002 Message 2 of 16
Several USA states have sodomy laws mentioning oral and anal sodomy. Texas where the Supreme Court case originated has only same-sex sodomy laws while many states even have both sex sodomy laws which made President Clinton guilty... until the law was changed on July 5, 2002 of this year making President Clinton no longer a criminal in Arkansas... LOL As far as I can tell, vaginal penetration by the penis, fingers, hands, dildos, or anything else consenting members here do, following our 'vaginal only' subject matter, do is legal.
From: Joe Sent: 7 Dec. 2002 Message 3 of 16
Not sure what one should say about things like this. I know that there is an automatic psychological reaction to reject criticism of your group from someone outside your group. I.e., when a non-American like me suggests that America has problems and that Americans should be doing something about it, then the automatic reaction is, "you foreigners can mind your own business, what makes you think you have the right to criticize us."
So I'll just say that the above story saddens me, and that I'd like to call on everyone everywhere where there are repressive sexual laws and to suggest that you "stand up and be counted" whenever you have the chance to influence attitudes or to change the laws. For example by quizzing your politicians and suggesting to them that a sexually enlightened policy is what you want and by voting according to where the politicians stand on these issues.
Joe
From: Blitzppp Sent: 7 Dec. 2002 Message 4 of 16
Joe,
I for one appreciate your opinion. as from the outside, you are not biased and influenced by the special weird groups that control American politics, news, and policy. Most everybody has their opinion 'ready made' for them in America and get jumped if they have a glimmer of original thought... LOL
From: bitmap Sent: 30 Dec. 2002 Message 5 of 16
newunew,
Check the Texas Penal Code again. In Texas, fisting is legal as long as the thumb does not enter the vagina. If the entire fist is used then it is illegal.
From: newunew Sent: 30 Dec. 2002 Message 6 of 16
I looked up the Texas Penal Code and here's what I found:
§21.01. Definitions.
In this chapter:
(1) "Deviate sexual intercourse" means:
(A) any contact between any part of the genitals of one person and the mouth or anus of another person; or
(B) the penetration of the genitals or the anus of another person with an object.
§21.06. Homosexual conduct.
(a) A person commits an offense if he engages in deviate sexual intercourse with another individual of the same sex.
(b) An offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor.
I didn't see the distinction you describe in your post.
Texas appears to have very precise definitions. Other states use terms like "sodomy," "gross indecency," or "the abominable and detestable crime against nature."
From: Thomas Ghia Sent: 30 Dec. 2002 Message 7 of 16
Just yesterday I was listening to a recorded interview given by Bertrand Russel and it fits this case case like glove. Part 3 of the interview deals with taboo morality. I think his statements are a model of clarity. If only law-makers would listen to it. The interviews are not really in depth discussions, but, oh, they´re such an example of balanced opinion. If anyone is interested, they can be found with winmx. I share them under the Cora alias. Happy New Year to all!
From: Mike&Sue Sent: 13 Jan. 2003 Message 8 of 16
In Texas, if you have FIVE dildos, you're a collector. If you have SIX dildos, you're a felon. Go figure.
From: short195 Sent: 14 Jan. 2003 Message 9 of 16
first of all i love the site thank you
second i live in texas and have never
heard of this law i guess my would a felon then
unless it 5 for me 5 for her
From: newunew Sent: 12 April 2003 Message 10 of 16
You can read the arguments in the U.S. Supreme Court at:
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/02-102.pdf
It was clear the court was sharply divided, with heavy questioning on all sides.
Some highlights:
1. Mr. Smith, Lawrence's lawyer, suggested that the justices could rule for his client without having to invalidate fornication laws:
Question: Why is the marital contract important to the state? Because it's the source of the next generation, right?
Mr. Smith: Sure, the State is --
Question: And you think there's not some of the same thinking behind the conscious choice of the State to favor heterosexual and marital sex over homosexual sex?
Mr. Smith: Well, I can understand a law which says we're going to attempt to channel heterosexuals towards marriage by making them -- by making it illegal for them to have sex outside of marriage. I can't understand that law under -- under that kind of rational which only regulates same sex couples and says you can't have sex but everyone else has a right to.
2. Justice Scalia, often considered the Supreme Court's most conservative member::
Mr. Smith: Justice Scalia,...it's been conceded here by this State, it was conceded by the State of Georgia 17 years ago, that married couples cannot be regulated...in their personal sexual expresion in the home.
Question: They conceded it. I haven't conceded it.
3. Justice Breyer, a Clinton appointee:
Question: All right, so what is the justification for this statute, other than, you know, its not what they say on the other side, is this simply I do not like thee, Dr. Fell, the reason why I cannot tell?
From: geriboise Sent: 12 April 2003 Message 11 of 16
I can sometimes understand one someone talk about a sex subject a little bit out of the subject of a group but you're completly outside of the track with your legal advise. What's the meaning of all that? Fisting a woman is illegal if you're not married with that woman.
From: Joe Sent: 12 April 2003 Message 12 of 16
If I remember right, this thread was started at a time when MSN Groups was deleting a lot of adult groups, and I was very worried that "Cindy and Joe" might get closed down too. There was discussion on another thread about the suppressive attitudes towards kinky sex that lead to censorship and so on. So in that context I think this thread is quite relevant for this group.
I think the thing to learn from this thread and from similar discussions is that we should all be aware that freedom of speech and freedom from interference in our sex lives is something we need to fight for. We should all be willing to speak out when necessary, even when we'd rather keep quiet and avoid the repercusions that can follow from taking a public position on a volatile subject. And we should all try to influence our politicions, not just in how we cast our votes but by quizing them on their position on these subjects and telling them how we feel.
"I like pornography!" - that should be our battle cry!
Joe
From: geriboise Sent: 13 April 2003 Message 13 of 16
Of course Joe you're wright this remembering me when Bill Clinton had wanting to stop all adult site on the internet. Should Monica Lewinsky read this ...
Sorry for my last critic, I'm sometimes a little bit too much emphasis on what should be and what shouldn't be. Who I am to criticize.
Did I say that I like too much pornography too !
Serge
From: newunew Sent: 27 June 2003 Message 14 of 16
The U.S. Supreme Court today struck down the Texas sodomy law. The court directly overturned a decision it had issued only 17 years ago upholding these laws. The breadth of its ruling surprised many analysts and observers. Five justices said that "sexual intimacy" should be considered part of a general right to privacy. The ruling is broad enough to suggest that all laws applying to private consensual adult sexual conduct of any type may now be unconstitutional, and that such laws may now or soon be at an end. The decision was 6-3.
Justice O'Conner, the sixth vote, wrote separately to say that she believed a state could enact sodomy laws, but could not enact a law that applies only to homosexuals. One of the dissenting judges, Justice Thomas, called the law "an uncommonly silly law" and said he would vote to repeal it were he in the Texas Legislature, but he did not believe federal courts had the legal power to issue a decision in the matter.
The decision, Lawrence v. Texas, is reported on the Supreme Court web site at:
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/26jun20031200/www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/02pdf/02-102.pdf
From: kinkupleinNW Sent: 27 June 2003 Message 15 of 16
Thank God 4 sum common sense atlast!!!
From: newunew Sent: 30 June 2003 Message 16 of 16
Over the weekend Bill Frist, the Senate majority leader, criticized Lawrence and said states should decide whether or not to outlaw sodomy in accordance with local mores. He announced support for a new constitutional amendment, recently introduced in Congress, called the "Defense of Marriage" amendment. The proposed amendment states that marriage is the union of a man and a woman and which would prohibit the courts from interpreting the Federal or state constitutions to require states to grant the "legal incidents of marriage" to any unmarried couple or group.
What is a "legal incident of marriage?" Your guess is as good as mine, but to the extent that an exclusive right to engage in sexual relations might be thought to be a "legal incident of marriage," the proposed Amendment could be an effort to overturn Lawrence in the guise of an amendment that appears to address the issue of marriage only.
The 'Opry ain't over yet.
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